Power trains for Flyingwings Slipstream

[Rich 26]

Hey guys (Those who have, or had Slipstreams)

 

So, I've veered a bit off the Multiplex road, crappy sat nav, and wound up with a Flyingwings Slipstream wing..

Dont ask me how it happened, probably too much caffine and lack of sleep...

 

Anywho...

 

I've seen Colins one and a few others up the field and thats pretty impressive, but never get the chance to see what power trains are running them.

 

I know Colins has a 2212 motor in, which goes like "I'm Richard Branson", but couldnt see the ESC in it or prop size.

 

Colin & the gang... if you see this, what ESC is in yours?

I have a 30A JP one doing nothing, should this cover it, and any future motor swap-outs/upgrades?

 

6x4 APC?

 

Flyingwings are hopeless at answering the phone, or emails, took me 25 calls to get an answer to my "Have you posted it yet" as my first order months ago took almost 4 weeks to arrive, and was postmarked a few days before it arrived... I've asked them what their power kits consist of, as they have zero info on what they use, but alas, no reply for weeks..

[Nutz 0]

3000kv JP motor 2000/2200 3s, 40A ESC.

 

Mine went like a bat out of hell, get some decent servos like hitech hs85.

 

http://www.jperkinsdistribution.co.uk/d ... 0-%20EnErG

[Rich 26]

Something like this with a 35A ESC on it and a 6x4 APC prop...

http://www.jperkinsdistribution.co.uk/d ... 0-%20EnErG

 

Any good?

 

Just updated the link to the perkins website...

2000kv inrunner...

Edited April 9, 2012 by Guest

[Bravedan 106]

No Idea, I get "catalogid is missing for extended description" on the link.

 

As it happens I'm just completing one. I had two Slope Soarer Slipstreams (and also a couple of sets of wing cores somewhere!!) but the lighter one of the two was approaching the inevitable "replace the tape" time as it was UV aged and becoming unacceptably loose from the foam. I'd never liked the underneath scheme anyway!!

 

Since I'd proved that the heavier DS spec one would do it all anyway, the weight "saving" of the 300g lighter one just making penetration more difficult as the wind rose, I decided on the spur of the moment as I had to strip it to electrify it.

 

Rummaged around and found a large Keda Inrunner and a 40A ESC spare.

 

It already had powerful and quick Supertec Parkfly Fast medium sized servos, but these were a quick addition way back to avoid gear stripping when landing in non-landing friendly zones on dodgy tight slopes and their location in the wing using the smaller servo holes as much as possible had bumped into the tube spar, so they were not perfectly flush.

 

As it was stripped I moved the servos forward to clear the spar. It already had a second rearward wider spar, so larger holes were not going to be an issue. The forward move will help the balance a bit anyway, as its almost certain that even a 2300mAH 3S will not get to CG alone. I turned the servos round to be able to use the old rods. Waste not, etc, etc......

 

Obviously the full length elevons would get shorter to allow for the prop, but then they are big enough and it'd have some suction propwash to help at low speed. Luckily the existing horns were located OK for this.

 

I tested the power train on 35MHz with no issues as I have a workbench setup old Tx and Rx which I use, but when I changed to a 2.4GHz Rx, it started seemingly randomly (at first) rebooting as the throttle was closed.........

 

Tests proved this ONLY happened on 2.4, and was so with either a Futaba (two types) or a FRSky FASST Rx (again two types). Clearly the BEC was briefly sagging to reboot level when the throttle was snap closed from high levels near to wide open, something 35MHz could happily deal with!!!

 

For speed I just found another 40A ESC, but my next test on the iffy ESC will be to try a UBEC and disable its BEC, using it as an OPTO to prove beyond ANY doubt it was the BEC voltage from that unit. (It was a Heli ESC where fully snap closing the throttle in flight was unlikely!!).

 

As I write it's been recovered, the motor is bolted on the back, and the elevons are hinged on. When I can access the model room and make noise I'll refit the rods, get the throws right, fit the tips, make a battery cover, and then find out how bad the CG is......... lead at the ready.............

 

Oh, and I have to find the toothpick speed 7" pitch prop I sorted for it only for the Workshop Gremlin to hide it again.............

 

Then to static DPR it to check on the power, it's going to be 400 watts ish, at or near the ESC Max. I might do that outside ..........and not when the neighbours are sleeping ........

 

Don't think its likely to be a suitably quiet BH flyer so no rush .................

 

As usual its a high contrast scheme, mostly white with some red on top, differently shaped red on mostly black underside, so very marked tone and contrast differences.

[Bravedan 106]

Leon, was that link actually your motor?

 

The link lists as 2000kV, max running 20A (25A brief peak). 20A x 10v (allowing for sag) is 200W input, say in reality 180W output max??

 

Looks a good motor for a 25-30A ESC.

[Bravedan 106]

From memory Colins motor was a 2212-6, the wind is important, a "6" wind being I consider the std mid size general purpose "fast wing" motor, but wasn't his the Raven, or does he have both??

 

My Raven was not that much slower, yet only had an EMax 2814 cheap motor and a 1000mAh 3S as a "powered glider" to keep the weight down.

[arun 0]

Colin's model is a Raven - I replicated the spec he wrote down for me (which I believe Dave provided originally).

 

SP 2212-06 motor from GiantCod HobbyWing Guard 30A ESC

6x4" APC

2300 3s LiPo

TowerPro 9g servos on ailevators

 

I covered mine in coloured packing tape although the Raven isn't actually intended for covering it made no odds IMHO. Went very fast, so I put LED strips on wings which really helped orientation...

 

I still have the motor, ESCs, servos, LEDs if you want Richard and happy to sell as won't need them in near future. PM me of interested.

 

Cheers

[Nutz 0]

Leon, was that link actually your motor?

 

The link lists as 2000kV, max running 20A (25A brief peak). 20A x 10v (allowing for sag) is 200W input, say in reality 180W output max??

 

Looks a good motor for a 25-30A ESC.

 

Sorry that link/post was done from my phone, it is actually this one

 

http://www.jperkinsdistribution.co.uk/d ... 0-%20EnErG

 

3000Kv, normally found in 450 size heli's buy whack a small prop on it and you have a missle. you will need a 40A ESC

[Rich 26]

I'm thinking for mine, the perkins 2000kv, or just copy Leons and dont go full throttle lol (Chicken)

 

Colin actually has both, the Raven and the Slipstream, and the last time I saw him, he had the Slipstream up the field which had the 2212 motor on..

 

Not sure which way to go now, the 2000kv inrunner or the 3000kv inrunner. Hmmmmmm..

I think either way its gonna get a EnErG 40A ESC, just to keep options open...

 

Thanks for the replies and help guys, and you Dave

Am leaning towards the "be brave and stick a 3000kv inrunner in it" lol... Should be good for 1 mad flight..

[arun 0]

Why spend £40+ on a motor that will give same performance as one for £9 in this model? It's only a foamie wing, not a 2m 1500W+ aerobatic monster

[Nutz 0]

Out runners are better or torque but for speed you will want a in runner.

[arun 0]

The out runner I had gave me enough speed to fly very fast into the oak tree

[Rich 26]

I used to host the giantcod website, and had many a long chat, into the night with the owner, and know where his stuff comes from, hence I never, ever shop there. Nothing against giantcod, but have seen a lot of the cheap crap, and what it does, and personally want to avoid that...

 

Time constraints dictate that for me, it takes me about a month to build what most would get done in a few evenings, so I dont want to spend 2 weeks building a wing, only to have it wrecked by some cheap shite components.

 

That extra few quid is pricess for me in peace of mind and better gear..

I dont want to have to buy a motor, only to then waste time having to balance the motor as well as the prop too, or have magnets parting company with the motor mid-flight or getting seriously hot, moreso than acceptable.

 

I dont mind using cheap crap on a firefly, but not something that goes further than the edge of the patch, and/or fast enough to put somebody in hospital if something went wrong.

 

Like Leon says too, I deliberately want an inrunner to reduce tourque... The Xeno has quite a bit of Torque roll on full power, and that thing is HEAVY, with only 250watts power, so you can imagine what it would do to a wing half the weight..

 

I was mostly concerned with what kv motor to use with what ESC/Prop... I think we have a winner now

[Nutz 0]

I just looked on flyingwings and the prop for the 3000Kv motor is a APC 5.5 x 4.5

 

It will sound like an F1 car on full chat. mine did.

[YellowAlert 0]

3000kv JP motor 2000/2200 3s, 40A ESC.

 

Mine went like a bat out of hell, get some decent servos like hitech hs85

 

+1 IMO the same ideal setup I had on mine too. You want a 5.5x4.5 Apc prop too, fast but you don't have to use all the beans all the time. Learning fast flying on this near indestructible model was a good stepping stone towards flying the much faster FunJet. You can probably find a cheaper equivalent motor at HK but 3000kv is definitely on the money. As Nutz said, high kv = inruner, lower kv = outrunner, however there are exceptions, doesn't really matter if the numbers work and it will fit. Outrunners can be a pain in skinny glider noses for example, not an issue on the Slipstream. Whatever setup you choose be warned it will snap out the bottom of loops etc - the chairman of my last club nearly killed everyone in the pilot box after snapping out while combatting, which was quite exciting =-0

[Bravedan 106]

Well, my quick n nasty Glider to Power Slipstream conversion flew today.

 

I have the poor motor on a 6x6 Graupner CamSpeed so it's being pushed a bit hard, in fact VERY VERY hard (see below!). Its stood it so far, four flights...........but Hey, its that cheap rubbish Giant Cod stuff, so probably a life measured in minutes, but at a cost of pence, Eh?

 

I'd forgotten what the motor actually was, it's been kicking around here so long, but just checked and it's a 2800kV....... Errr, on a 6x6, gulp.............

 

 

 

 

All the weight does not seem to have blunted the glide or the slow speed ability, and it'll hand launch on about a third throttle, so it has a pretty wide speed range.

 

Unlike a delta though, you CAN stall it (in the past I stalled the glider variant several times!), and as Sam says, that translates to a snap out of extreme g power moves, though I did have to push it hard today to do it.

 

 

Major bits........

 

http://www.giantcod.co.uk/keda-brushless-inrunner-b284714s-2800kv-amps-p-402970.html

http://www.giantcod.co.uk/charge-loong-2300mah-tipple-lipo-battery-p-405347.html

http://www.giantcod.co.uk/hobbywing-40amp-pentium-speed-controller-p-42.html

[Rich 26]

Cheers Dave / Sam..

What exactly do you mean by snap?

Do you mean the model actually snaps in half, or it just does a violent move?

 

Spoke to Avi today and Ali recons the 2000kv motor can much easier run a 6x5.5 prop no probs, and gives a wider performance envelope, yet can stil go like the nutz, without all the noise, so am gonna give that a shot once its built....

[YellowAlert 0]

Cheers Dave / Sam..

What exactly do you mean by snap?

 

As Dave said it will snap (tip-stall) violently during high-G - which is bad enough - even worse it will often go into something like a spin that is difficult to recover from, usually ending in a crash. The tough-as-boots model will survive but anybody you hit may not, so be careful! Deliberately make it snap at a safe distance to get a feel for things before doing high-G stuff anywhere near the strip.

 

Now I remember the mount with the power Slipstream is probably only suitable for an in-runner so ignore what I said earlier about using an out-runner as you would need to fab a new mount, not worth the hassle unless perhaps you already have a suitable out-runner to hand. The cheap 3000kv JP EnErG motor I have screams nicely on a 5.5x4.5 prop; 2000kv on a 6x5.5 should still be fun as Ali says.

 

Sam

[Nutz 0]

In regards to the high speed tip stall (snap), I normally find out how much elevator it takes to do do it and turn down the end points so your never get into that situation (just like I have done on my WOT 4, Piper Cub, (actually I think all my models apart form the 3D ones) as that will snap out of a loop with too much elevator).

[Bravedan 106]

So, with four flights under its belt yesterday, I thought I'd push it still further, so a change of prop and off it went........screaming.........

 

Probably around half battery, out came the magic smoke.......big time........quite a nice trail really..........

 

Got it down low enough and finally lost radio low and slow enough so it "fell" into longer field grass, by this time with visible flames.....

 

This was Arun's pic (thanks Arun) after the very short walk back to the pits.........

 

 

Smoke still rising ............the ESC didn't like being over driven much...........

 

And pic after stripping the ESC out:-

 

 

And now.......................its back!! :-

 

 

Now you might just wonder how I got a bigger ESC so quickly...well, I'd already ordered it for this plane, but wasn't prepared to wait and the figures were marginal as OK anyway (on the original prop, that is)..... it arrived this morning about the time it was smoking itself

 

With regard the snap roll issue, the Slipstream does not HAVE to be at risk, but if you want lower speed lunacy then you have to compromise a bit.

 

I can reinforce that point. The Slipstream AS A GLIDER is regarded as a very good if not THE best DS (Dynamic Soaring) Trainer.

 

DS flying means flying loops effectively on knife edge very fast, very accurately, very low, repetitively............ and DS build versions (like one I have) have done 175mph plus...............you don't get that from a plane that is suspect and is by design snap inherent. But then as Leon rightly states, a DS plane is set up for control at those speeds with maximum servo resolution and minimum throws and that means big compromises when flying slowly (sub 100!), even with rates set up.

 

You sets your throws and you takes your chances.........

 

[Rich 26]

Ahhh, the pre-installed smoke... Designed exclusively for airshows, just testing it out huh, making sure it actually works lol..

Blimey, what prop did you have on that can?

[Bravedan 106]

Blimey, what prop did you have on that can?

 

One that was too much for it!!

[Bravedan 106]

SLIGHTLY off topic, but it's now as far as I'm concerned confirmed beyond doubt that with 2.4GHz and a big ESC the ESC capacitors and or the BEC circuit placement can give you a few seconds control even after the FETS have torched and the heat sink melted off, enough to orientate it better for the approaching no damage "arrival".

 

A while back I had a battery fall out of a plane and disconnect (Windrider Fox) in a loop when inverted, and sans battery (and canopy!) I had enough radio to half roll, level it, point it at the strip angled away from the pits, and set the right amount of elevator for a glide approach. No damage arrival then, either.

 

I still had control of the Slipstream way beyond the start of serious smoke ejection, enough to get it into a "safe" place personnel and pits wise.

[Nutz 0]

I had the older version of the DC-UP (Mk1) with the number display but still a good device to take the strain from you radio system and will give you extra time in a event of a power loss.

 

http://www.fromeco.org/Products/05FRCDCUPM2/

 

I had this one